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	<title>Comments on: Popular Initiatives</title>
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		<title>By: rob adams</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134212</link>
		<dc:creator>rob adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134212</guid>
		<description>If anything, history has shown us that civil rights ultimately always prevail; Perhaps not within the system we anticipate or currently enjoy (e.g., federal republics), but housed in some social system only now starting to re-emerge (e.g., syndicalism!).  I, too, think we&#039;re on the verge of revolution -- but, yep, i&#039;m not so pessimistic.  Fascism, be it western or eastern, died.  Totalitarianism did too.  And so does laisez fair capitalism before our eyes.  If society continues to brightly hope and embrace positivism, and doesn&#039;t become mired in some intellectually vogue nihilistic pessimism of the day, then we do have a chance.

I care less about the loss of Maine, or the forces of doom&#039;s designs on NewHampshire, than i do, for example, on the optimism and assertive hope that, say, Massachusetts exemplifies.  Embolden the example and it&#039;ll trample over the fear.

It&#039;s examples such as that State&#039;s that will ultimately prevail -- not some mechanistic gloomy nay-saying response that we see above.

Gaydom needs to learn about hard work and sacrifice, and less about quick-n-easy, over-night results.  We need to grow up.


The future is very bright, but not easy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anything, history has shown us that civil rights ultimately always prevail; Perhaps not within the system we anticipate or currently enjoy (e.g., federal republics), but housed in some social system only now starting to re-emerge (e.g., syndicalism!).  I, too, think we&#8217;re on the verge of revolution &#8212; but, yep, i&#8217;m not so pessimistic.  Fascism, be it western or eastern, died.  Totalitarianism did too.  And so does laisez fair capitalism before our eyes.  If society continues to brightly hope and embrace positivism, and doesn&#8217;t become mired in some intellectually vogue nihilistic pessimism of the day, then we do have a chance.</p>
<p>I care less about the loss of Maine, or the forces of doom&#8217;s designs on NewHampshire, than i do, for example, on the optimism and assertive hope that, say, Massachusetts exemplifies.  Embolden the example and it&#8217;ll trample over the fear.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s examples such as that State&#8217;s that will ultimately prevail &#8212; not some mechanistic gloomy nay-saying response that we see above.</p>
<p>Gaydom needs to learn about hard work and sacrifice, and less about quick-n-easy, over-night results.  We need to grow up.</p>
<p>The future is very bright, but not easy.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134211</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134211</guid>
		<description>No other group has ever had their civil rights placed before the voters in a referendum.  But the right-wing think they have license to practice bigotry openly against gay people.  I have long argued about how ridiculous and demeaning it is to have to convince enough average voters to do the right thing regarding equality and civil rights.  No one else had to do it this way.  If the inter-racial marriage matter had been up for a vote in each state can any one  tell me how that might have fared in the south?   The only thing left to do is fight like hell, and not let the conservatives have an inch.   I know the tide of history is on my side, ( inspite of some setbacks) and the conservatives do to, but until there is an all-out victory these types of battles will be waged, and we must react with all the vigor and determination we can mount. 

Each of us has seen so much in our life.  We have found new galaxies due to Hubble, witnessed the end of the Cold War, the use of stem-cells to prevent diseases is around the corner, even anti-matter is no longer a dream.
 
So in that context gay marriage is not hard to believe is coming.
 
Because it is.
 
Recall that folks like Rosa Parks lived to see so much of what she never had at one point in her life become the law of the land, due to fighting and demanding.
 
So shall we.
 
Never lose faith.

I haven’t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No other group has ever had their civil rights placed before the voters in a referendum.  But the right-wing think they have license to practice bigotry openly against gay people.  I have long argued about how ridiculous and demeaning it is to have to convince enough average voters to do the right thing regarding equality and civil rights.  No one else had to do it this way.  If the inter-racial marriage matter had been up for a vote in each state can any one  tell me how that might have fared in the south?   The only thing left to do is fight like hell, and not let the conservatives have an inch.   I know the tide of history is on my side, ( inspite of some setbacks) and the conservatives do to, but until there is an all-out victory these types of battles will be waged, and we must react with all the vigor and determination we can mount. </p>
<p>Each of us has seen so much in our life.  We have found new galaxies due to Hubble, witnessed the end of the Cold War, the use of stem-cells to prevent diseases is around the corner, even anti-matter is no longer a dream.</p>
<p>So in that context gay marriage is not hard to believe is coming.</p>
<p>Because it is.</p>
<p>Recall that folks like Rosa Parks lived to see so much of what she never had at one point in her life become the law of the land, due to fighting and demanding.</p>
<p>So shall we.</p>
<p>Never lose faith.</p>
<p>I haven’t.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134209</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134209</guid>
		<description>Rob:
I&#039;m sorry, but having studied history I am just not that optimistic about humanity as you seem to be. 

Your indictment of gay society certainly has a lot of truth behind it, but it is really no different from the general social mindset that late-stage capitalism has by necessity bred into the population at large. Profits can only be realized by consumption, thererfore partying and fun-fun-more-fun-dammit is essential to the bottom line of the ruling class. 

This system cannot endure forever and it will eventually collapse. The present economic difficulties are harsh, but they are not yet as bad as things could be and as bad as they inevitably will be. 

Maybe we won&#039;t have a civil war; as I said, right now all the guns are on the other side. What is clear, though, is that if present trends continue the Republic will not survive. Almost all the possibilities of what will replace it are terrifying. 

Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, the Tea Baggers -- these are the shape of things to come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob:<br />
I&#8217;m sorry, but having studied history I am just not that optimistic about humanity as you seem to be. </p>
<p>Your indictment of gay society certainly has a lot of truth behind it, but it is really no different from the general social mindset that late-stage capitalism has by necessity bred into the population at large. Profits can only be realized by consumption, thererfore partying and fun-fun-more-fun-dammit is essential to the bottom line of the ruling class. </p>
<p>This system cannot endure forever and it will eventually collapse. The present economic difficulties are harsh, but they are not yet as bad as things could be and as bad as they inevitably will be. </p>
<p>Maybe we won&#8217;t have a civil war; as I said, right now all the guns are on the other side. What is clear, though, is that if present trends continue the Republic will not survive. Almost all the possibilities of what will replace it are terrifying. </p>
<p>Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, the Tea Baggers &#8212; these are the shape of things to come.</p>
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		<title>By: rob adams</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134208</link>
		<dc:creator>rob adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134208</guid>
		<description>This is a loss, but is it really some macro_level loss across the nation?  Hardly.

And CivilWar?  Hardly at all.
When our gay-society cares less about consumerism, partying, and abandons the fun-fun-more-fun-dammit! mentality then we&#039;ll see true civil progress of our rights.

Maturity matters.

rob@egoz.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a loss, but is it really some macro_level loss across the nation?  Hardly.</p>
<p>And CivilWar?  Hardly at all.<br />
When our gay-society cares less about consumerism, partying, and abandons the fun-fun-more-fun-dammit! mentality then we&#8217;ll see true civil progress of our rights.</p>
<p>Maturity matters.</p>
<p><a href="mailto:rob@egoz.org">rob@egoz.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134206</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134206</guid>
		<description>I honestly believe this country is headed for another civil war and, sadly, I am coming to the regretful conclusion that that is the only way that all of these issues are going to be resolved. 

What disturbs me, though, is that right now all the guns are on the other side, the enemies of the Republic and of human rights and freedom. As much as it appalled me, the Tea Baggers who brought guns to protest Obama had a point. Political power does not grow out of a protest sign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly believe this country is headed for another civil war and, sadly, I am coming to the regretful conclusion that that is the only way that all of these issues are going to be resolved. </p>
<p>What disturbs me, though, is that right now all the guns are on the other side, the enemies of the Republic and of human rights and freedom. As much as it appalled me, the Tea Baggers who brought guns to protest Obama had a point. Political power does not grow out of a protest sign.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2009-11-04 (Jarrett House North)</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134203</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2009-11-04 (Jarrett House North)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134203</guid>
		<description>[...] The Tin Man » Popular Initiatives This is what the gay marriage initiative problem comes down to for me: &quot;individual rights should not be subject to democratic vote. Majorities should not be able to take away the rights of minorities.&quot; (tags: gaymarriage) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Tin Man » Popular Initiatives This is what the gay marriage initiative problem comes down to for me: &quot;individual rights should not be subject to democratic vote. Majorities should not be able to take away the rights of minorities.&quot; (tags: gaymarriage) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pupdadco</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134202</link>
		<dc:creator>Pupdadco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134202</guid>
		<description>Ya know, I feel the same way...tired of seeing it go to a &quot;vote&quot; and losing.  I feel that we will never win marriage equity that way, only the courts can do it.  Just like the civil rights battles in the 60&#039;s, it was laws passed, and challenges in courts that progressed that movement.  I have a feeling that the Prop 8 challenge will be in the courts for years, and we will have the up and down decisions along the way.  I want to believe that most of the non-supporters are dying off, but I think that is false hope.  There are plenty of younger people out there (Carrie Prejean, Matt Barber, dare I say it, Sarah Palin) that aren&#039;t going to die off soon...and will be towing the line of the older generation that oppose gay marriage.

What do you do?  I laugh at the &quot;rallies&quot; being organized for tonight for Maine&#039;s vote as worthless...great, the gays are mad again...oh well, just like Lisa Simpson mentioned once at Springfield&#039;s Pride Parade:  &quot;You do this every year, We are used to it!!   We have to do something different...I don&#039;t know what that is.  Until religion is out of the marriage business it&#039;s going to be an uphill battle.  Until then, I live with my partner, out in the community, living like a married couple.  We both wear typical simple gold wedding bands as a silent sign of protest (?).  Sure, we can&#039;t have the legal aspect of marriage, but until then, we plan to act like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ya know, I feel the same way&#8230;tired of seeing it go to a &#8220;vote&#8221; and losing.  I feel that we will never win marriage equity that way, only the courts can do it.  Just like the civil rights battles in the 60&#8242;s, it was laws passed, and challenges in courts that progressed that movement.  I have a feeling that the Prop 8 challenge will be in the courts for years, and we will have the up and down decisions along the way.  I want to believe that most of the non-supporters are dying off, but I think that is false hope.  There are plenty of younger people out there (Carrie Prejean, Matt Barber, dare I say it, Sarah Palin) that aren&#8217;t going to die off soon&#8230;and will be towing the line of the older generation that oppose gay marriage.</p>
<p>What do you do?  I laugh at the &#8220;rallies&#8221; being organized for tonight for Maine&#8217;s vote as worthless&#8230;great, the gays are mad again&#8230;oh well, just like Lisa Simpson mentioned once at Springfield&#8217;s Pride Parade:  &#8220;You do this every year, We are used to it!!   We have to do something different&#8230;I don&#8217;t know what that is.  Until religion is out of the marriage business it&#8217;s going to be an uphill battle.  Until then, I live with my partner, out in the community, living like a married couple.  We both wear typical simple gold wedding bands as a silent sign of protest (?).  Sure, we can&#8217;t have the legal aspect of marriage, but until then, we plan to act like it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tin Man</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134201</link>
		<dc:creator>Tin Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134201</guid>
		<description>Oh, I just had a little bit of insomnia last night.  That&#039;s the reason for the 2:13 a.m. timestamp. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I just had a little bit of insomnia last night.  That&#8217;s the reason for the 2:13 a.m. timestamp. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134200</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134200</guid>
		<description>I agree that the majority should not be able to take away the rights of anyone.  The &quot;majority&quot; of Americans (at least, that proportion who were able to vote) denied rights to my African-American ancestors for almost 200 years.  But in this case, politics is clashing with religion, and religion is not rational.  Gay rights are bumping against Conservative Christianity (and Islam and Judaism), and the religious feel that they have God on their side.  It&#039;s going to be a tough job to convince them otherwise... 

Good blog--but when do you sleep?!?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the majority should not be able to take away the rights of anyone.  The &#8220;majority&#8221; of Americans (at least, that proportion who were able to vote) denied rights to my African-American ancestors for almost 200 years.  But in this case, politics is clashing with religion, and religion is not rational.  Gay rights are bumping against Conservative Christianity (and Islam and Judaism), and the religious feel that they have God on their side.  It&#8217;s going to be a tough job to convince them otherwise&#8230; </p>
<p>Good blog&#8211;but when do you sleep?!?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.tinmanic.com/archives/2009/11/04/popular-initiatives/comment-page-1/#comment-134199</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tinmanic.com/?p=4120#comment-134199</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think there is any justification for submitting decisions about the private life of individuals to a popular vote. Of course, I don&#039;t think the government should be involved in marriage at all, but since it is wishing it away won&#039;t help.

Referenda like this take advantage of the fact that the majority of Americans are ignorant, bigoted sheep who follow the dictates of the superstitious religion as interpreted by self-serving demagogues instead of reason, common sense, and enlightened self-interest. The masses have not yet been liberated from the mental slavery they have been bred into, and so cannot be relied upon to vote in favor of the further emancipation of humanity. 

I suppose it is small consolation that the we have made enough progress that the worst we have to be disappointed about is the denial of an elective legal benefit. Sodomy laws are gone, non-discrimination laws are commonplace, AIDS research, prevention, and treatment are well-funded; a handful of states either have marriage or something similar. Compare that to 20 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think there is any justification for submitting decisions about the private life of individuals to a popular vote. Of course, I don&#8217;t think the government should be involved in marriage at all, but since it is wishing it away won&#8217;t help.</p>
<p>Referenda like this take advantage of the fact that the majority of Americans are ignorant, bigoted sheep who follow the dictates of the superstitious religion as interpreted by self-serving demagogues instead of reason, common sense, and enlightened self-interest. The masses have not yet been liberated from the mental slavery they have been bred into, and so cannot be relied upon to vote in favor of the further emancipation of humanity. </p>
<p>I suppose it is small consolation that the we have made enough progress that the worst we have to be disappointed about is the denial of an elective legal benefit. Sodomy laws are gone, non-discrimination laws are commonplace, AIDS research, prevention, and treatment are well-funded; a handful of states either have marriage or something similar. Compare that to 20 years ago.</p>
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